Urban planning in a changing world - Ward Rauws - In Science #44 - RUG Podcast

Rijksuniversiteit Groningen (RUG)

In de Wetenschap

Invest in your policymaking in processes of learning and experimenting, because you know

the future will be uncertain, so you need to invest in this learning.

The future will be uncertain, so you need to invest in this learning.

So this complexity in itself and the fact that also the city adapts itself independently

So this complexity in itself and the fact that the city also adapts independently.

also from the interventions of planners should be a starting point for policymaking.

Also, the interventions of planners should serve as a starting point for policymaking.

Hi and welcome to InScience, the podcast of the University of Groningen.

Mijn naam is Wim Brons, our guest in this episode is Wart Rous.

My name is Wim Brons, our guest in this episode is Wart Rous.

Wart Rous is an associate professor of spatial planning at the University of Groningen.

He specializes in the development and planning of cities.

Welkom, Wart.

Welcome, Wart.

Nice to be here on the show.

On the show, yeah.

Also with me today, Tine Kretsput, of course.

Hi, how are you?

Hi, hoe gaat het met je?

Hi Wim, I'm good, how are you?

Hi Wim, ik ben goed, hoe gaat het met jou?

Busy as always.

Druk zoals altijd.

Busy?

I'm fine, thank you.

Ik ben goed, dank je.

Less busy than usual.

You are less busy than usual.

Oh, that's great.

Oh, dat is geweldig.

Yeah, no teaching at this moment.

Yeah, so makes it.

Yeah, so it makes.

Good to hear.

Find the podcast at rug.nl slash podcast, Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

listen to your favorite podcast.

First news in science from the University of Groningen, Tina.

Yeah, that's right.

So maybe less news from science, but more news from the University of Groningen.

Special times here.

People will have, at least people who are in Groningen will have noticed the protest

People will have, at least those in Groningen will have noticed the protest.

camp outside the Harmony building.

camp buiten het Harmony-gebouw.

It's been going on for, I think, about 10 days now since last, yeah, well, by the

time the podcast is published, obviously we don't know whether it's still on, but at

the time of recording it's on for 10 days.

The time of recording is set for 10 days.

I think, well, I don't really want to, I don't really want to give my personal opinion

I think, well, I don’t really want to, I don’t really want to give my personal opinion.

here, but I guess what's remarkable is that there's fairly, it's fairly quiet or it's

here, but I guess what's remarkable is that it's quite, it's quite quiet or it's

fairly, it's tolerated, the protest camp is tolerated.

Fairly, it's tolerated, the protest camp is tolerated.

That's different.

And to other cities, I suppose, it's, it's, it, it feels a lot more, yeah, quiet here.

There's little dialogue at the moment, but we, yeah, if people want to, want to stay

Er is op dit moment weinig dialoog, maar wij, ja, als mensen willen, willen blijven.

informed or want to know what's going on exactly, they can, I guess, go there, or it looks like

the protesters are willing to discuss what, why they do, why, why they are there and what

The protesters are willing to discuss what, why they do, why, why they are there and what.

they, what they want.

And I've also seen that the U-Krant, so the university newspaper is following.

And I've also seen that the U-Krant, the university newspaper, is following.

What's happening, I mean, it's next door to them, in a blog, sorry.

And they've also, I think, they've, they've posted a video where they talk to people.

And I think they've also posted a video where they talk to people.

So that's probably quite interesting if you want to inform yourself.

That's one thing.

Dat is één ding.

At the same time we have the Lustrum celebrations going on.

At the same time, we have the Lustrum celebrations happening.

So that's this week, I think.

So dat is deze week, denk ik.

I think our rector, Jacqueline Scherpen, has opened the Lustrum on Tuesday.

I think our rector, Jacqueline Scherpen, opened the Lustrum on Tuesday.

What was, that was yesterday, Tuesday, the 21st of May, we're celebrating the 410th anniversary

What was, that was yesterday, Tuesday, the 21st of May, we're celebrating the 410th anniversary.

of our university.

It's a program full of activities, including, there was a bake fair, a bake-off.

It's a program full of activities, including a bake fair and a bake-off.

Another big event within this, within this Lustrum was the Ceremony of Merit that took

Another big event within this Lustrum was the Ceremony of Merit that took place.

place yesterday, and there were quite a few prizes have been, have been handed out.

Place yesterday, and quite a few prizes have been awarded.

One went to Bram van Fulbrun.

Who was awarded, okay, now excuse me about my Dutch pronunciation, the Wierikhaar-Rengerink.

Who was awarded, okay, now excuse my Dutch pronunciation, the Wierikhaar-Rengerink.

Exactly.

That PhD award, first dissertation entitled Politics Out of Place, where he used an innovative

approach on spatial justice in the Netherlands, linking it to more broadly emerging international

approach to spatial justice in the Netherlands, linking it to more broadly emerging international

scientific discourse about spatial justice.

Waad, are you going to talk about this as well?

A little bit?

We can.

Can we ask you questions about this?

Well, you can always ask questions.

Okay, okay.

I was, I was part of this ceremony, or at least I was, I was invited to be there.

And actually, I think the video that was recorded on his, his PhD was, was really insightful.

And actually, I think the video that was recorded about his, his PhD was really insightful.

Okay.

So I really recommend watching it online.

All right.

So rather than me trying to figure out what it is, or asking you questions about it, we

tell people, we put it in the show notes and people can watch the video.

Tell people, we put it in the show notes and people can watch the video.

Ja.

Yes.

And then they will have more swimming lessons.

I think it was the science award was awarded to Leonie die Jonge, who we've also had on

I think the science award was awarded to Leonie die Jonge, who we've also had on.

the show, I'm not sure anymore in which episode, but that was about two years ago, I think.

It was very hard.

I remember.

Um, for her research on, I think right wing, right wing politics, radicalization, so on.

Um, voor haar onderzoek naar, ik denk rechtse, rechtse politiek, radicalisering, enzovoort.

Sorry.

Um, the activities also include awarding for.

Dr.

awarding for honorary doctorates

awarding of honorary doctorates

this will be

dit zal zijn

this coming Friday by the time

the podcast is published

this will be in the past

but we will also put the link in the show notes

but we will also include the link in the show notes

if you want to watch back that ceremony

if you want to watch that ceremony again

yeah, I guess that's enough news

ja, ik denk dat dat genoeg nieuws is

no? Sure, thanks

then to Wartraus again

dan weer naar Wartraus

welcome again, your

associate professor of spatial planning

one of your fields

een van je velden

of expertise is urban planning

but first

maar eerst

let's dive into spatial planning

what is it?

What is it?

I think

typical understanding in the general

typical understanding in general

debate or general news

is designing cities

is het ontwerpen van steden

and what comes where

and what goes where

but it's important to

mention that of course

of course

spatial planning is not only about cities

it's many different skills

het zijn veel verschillende vaardigheden

so the neighbourhood to the region

so the neighborhood to the region

but also has many different

geographical contexts

as a subject of design

of policy development

rural planning

but also marine spatial planning

maar ook mariene ruimtelijke ordening

for instance

maybe you're not aware of that

misschien ben je je daar niet van bewust

but the North Sea region

and the North Sea itself

is going to be

is already quite densely

occupied with all kinds of different functions

occupied with all sorts of different functions

wind energy for instance

wind

yeah

, of course

of course

oil reserves

all kinds of industrial activities

the ships that have to pass through

it's really a densely used area

it's really a densely populated area

and that needs to be coordinated

and I think that's actually

maybe a nice bridge to what I

what I would define planning to be about

is it

it is really about

measures that

try to coordinate and improve

probeer te coördineren en te verbeteren

the spatial impact of

many sectors

the sectoral developments

so we have a demand for mobility

we want to live somewhere

we willen ergens wonen

we want to recreate

we willen opnieuw creëren

and it all comes together

in space

and particularly in a context like the Netherlands

en vooral in een context zoals Nederland

space

the available land is very limited

so how can we create

so you have to take into account

an unimaginable number of factors

sectors

yeah, I would say so

ja, ik zou dat zeggen

so there are many

issues that influence

how we use space

what we want to do with it

what kind of externalities

that are produced

what is an externality?

What is an externality?

an externality is maybe

so for instance

noise pollution

geluidshinder

emission by cars

or a certain danger

that is created through

the transport of

chemical goods for instance

chemical products for instance

so negative consequences

negative consequences?

negative consequences

on the environment

if you live near an airport for instance

that's a major issue

dat is een groot probleem

and what's the focus of your research

within spatial planning?

so what I mainly look at

is how to deal with uncertainty in planning

so typically planning is

very long term oriented

many things

in reorganizing space

take quite some time

we easily talk about

10, 15, 20 years

and you can imagine

that in the meantime

you know

society

keeps on

progressing

changing

sure

so how on the one hand

reach long term goals

achieve long-term goals

and on the other hand

remain flexible

and adaptive

en adaptief

in responding to

well new opportunities

but also new challenges

maar ook nieuwe uitdagingen

sure

there's the word already

adaptive

yeah

yes

seems a bit

contradictory

planning and adaptive

planning en adaptief

right?

isn't it?

in some ways

in sommige opzichten

I can understand that

question

very much

because planning is about

okay

how do we want to move forward

in the future

and what do we want

and what would we like to avoid

so being adaptive

is not

adaptive planning

is not about

putting away plans for the future

and just being

en gewoon zijn

completely flexible

compleet flexibel

it is actually

having a certain mission

having a certain direction

but in the meantime

also acknowledging

the fact that

things

dingen

can turn out differently

and that you

should be able to respond

to that

can you say a bit more about

vision or direction

what do you mean by this

concretely

so what could be

an example

for such a concrete vision

yeah so

ja dus

typically planning

typical planning

is rather holistic

so if you look at

visionary documents

of planners

policy makers

it's typically about

het gaat meestal over

the livable city

for instance

oh okay

yeah

so how different

functions come together

but I think

maar ik denk

what is really urgent

for instance

at the moment

when you look

wanneer je kijkt

when you think about

wanneer je denkt aan

long term needs

long-term needs

it's making our cities

het maakt onze steden

climate proof

or it's about

making sure that

zorgen dat

we reach a certain level

of inclusion

when it comes to

the accessibility of facilities

when we look at

the province of Groningen

for instance

which combines

highly dense urban areas

zeer dichtbevolkte stedelijke gebieden

but also more rural areas

so typically

so typisch

these kind of ambitions

these kinds of ambitions

are part of a vision

and within planning

en binnen de planning

that's also typically

dat is ook typisch

translated into

a vision

a design

physical

visual representation

of how the future

might look like

okay

so you decide

basically you start off

with a vision

met een visie

a livable city

but the

maar de

adaptiveness

adaptability

then rests

dan rusten

adjusting

to what

livable means

in the

as we progress

in time

I think there are

various levels

to this

typically

typisch

the adaptivity

is happening

in the process

towards

trying to

reach that vision

bereik die visie

so it can be

very operational

meaning that

certain functions

that we realize

in space

that we also make sure

that we also ensure

that they can be used

for other type of activities

voor andere soorten activiteiten

or during the day

maybe it's a parking lot

and during the night

en gedurende de nacht

it can be also

used at a festival area

or whatever

of whatever

so that also

is a kind of adaptivity

but adaptivity

maar aanpassingsvermogen

could also be

at the level

of the

more abstract

activities

like goals

right

correct

problem definitions

of what we define

to be livable

also change over time

that's what I meant

Dat is wat ik bedoelde.

yeah

think back about

COVID for instance

then suddenly

dan opeens

many people realize

how valuable it is

to have a walkable

neighborhood

and to enjoy

en te genieten

some facilities

sommige faciliteiten

that are actually

nearby

that bring some

that brings some

life

leven

to places

so this is also

in itself

I would say

rather

rather dynamic

where does the vision

come from

, in practice

well

in practice

I think

it is

mostly

a vision

that is

developed

by policy makers

and if it's

and if it’s

a good vision

it's

a well

informed vision

with regard

to what

people in that region

need

which desires

they have

which vulnerabilities

they face

ze geconfronteerd worden

and

it's also

het is ook

partly

partially

designed

with

the residents

of that area

however

that

latter part

is challenging

is uitdagend

to organize

but it's also

maar het is ook

of course a bit

of course a little bit

I'm asking the question

I'm asking the question.

because the other day

I read an article

I read an article.

that said

the only long term

vision that has been

realized by the government

at the national level

is the program

Ruimte voor de Rivier

Room for the River

for example

so basically

dus basically

your question is

why would we

Waarom zouden we

bother about

worry about

making visions

if they

bother

but it's hard

maar het is moeilijk

right

it's definitely hard

het is zeker moeilijk

making

the vision

or realizing

the vision

well

making the vision

is hard

but realizing

maar zich realiseren

it is even more challenging

yeah

but

this is a

critique

I got on my

PhD thesis

why do you

waarom doe je dat

address both

adaptivity

and visioning

in one

research

in one

plea

for more

adaptive planning

the tricky thing is

you know

if you invest

in being adaptive

you're not

je bent niet

but you do not know

maar je weet het niet

when to adapt

and in which direction

then what is the whole

purpose of being adaptive

so you need

a kind of

long term

future

toekomst

or orientation

that tells you

okay

we are now moving in

we zijn nu aan het verhuizen

the direction

that we want to avoid

so we should adjust

so that's one reason

why you need the vision

but the other reason

maar de andere reden

is also

a vision also motivates

you articulate

as a

public organization

this is

what we feel

wat we voelen

is worth

investing in

investeren in

this is what we will

commit to

and that is also

important for other actors

because planning

omdat planning

is really evolving

many different

type of actors

type van acteurs

and visioning

en visieontwikkeling

could be

zou kunnen

is one of the tools

to get people

to align people

to create synergies

but certainly

maar zeker

with only a vision

met alleen een visie

you're definitely

je bent zeker

not

it's not gonna happen

not a good place

well

the great challenges

that are

you already mentioned

climate change

of course

and there's the housing

crisis

so that's two crisis

so that's two crises

I guess

Ik denk het.

is that the top of the list

Is dat de top van de lijst?

priority

in subjects

I would say

biodiversity crisis

definitely also

zeker ook

an important one

energy crisis

but

biodiversity

yeah

I live on the countryside

I live in the countryside.

they say in the cities

there's more biodiversity

than on the countryside

than in the countryside

right

it's true

yeah

yes

and it's surprising

en het is verrassend

to see that

systems are so

cities are so diverse

that they also provide

really a diversity

of ecosystems

and

there are

four of all

different species

also adapt

in different ways

in verschillende manieren

has this always

been the case

by the way

or is this

in the recent years

in recent years

yeah

yes

who could have

planned that

gepland dat

right

sorry

to ask the question

well

good

it's actually

het is eigenlijk

it's one of the things

het is een van de dingen

I learned through

this interdisciplinary

projects

and collaborations

en samenwerkingen

that I really

like to set up

so in this case

was with

Casper van der Kooij

and Martine Maan

FSE

and that was

one of the findings

that they shared with me

and they really

do fascinating

research on that

onderzoek daarover

I'm wondering

Ik vraag me af

whether

biodiversity

was always

was altijd

greater in cities

groter in steden

than in the

countryside

or whether

that is a new

development

well

what I find

fascinating here

is that

is dat

you know

we observe

this

quite

paradoxal

paradoxical

observation

that biodiversity

is higher in the city

is hoger in de stad

and why

en waarom

don't we

act upon it

take action on it

why is it

waarom is het

not included

in policy

making

really

echt

what we need

for the future

voor de toekomst

is more

nature's

inclusive

or sensitive

urban planning

because

omdat

actually

this shows

also

that nature

die natuur

and

more urban

functions

can go

together

quite well

vrij goed

if you design

it properly

in many

in veel

situations

I think

Ik denk.

that is

dat is

also

hopeful

more to do

with

countryside

planning

right

not urban

planning

of course

also

of course

yeah

sorry

yeah

absolutely

absoluut

but that's

maar dat is

not

that's

dat is

not

field

specialization

course

but

definitely

the

fact

that

made

these

acres

accessible

for big

machines

took away

money

of the

trees

and the

bushes

that

doesn't

help

at all

biodiversity

housing

crisis

and the

climate

crisis

in general

yeah

I think

housing

is I

think

for the

Netherlands

a very

interesting

one

what

I always

Ik altijd

find

important

to remember

that

why

waarom

have

ended

eindigde

this

situation

why

waarom

and

well

first

all

it's

important

acknowledge

it's

not

just

population

growth

it's

it is

also

shrinking

households

40%

of the

households

now

is a

single

person

household

40%

that's

dat is

immense

and

also

the

number

square

vierkant

meters

that

use

when

grandma

grandmother

was

living

Amsterdam

was

about

square

meters

per

person

now

it's

square

meters

per

person

also

Amsterdam

I'm

not

sure

where

waar

it's

it is

also

Amsterdam

good

one

not

it's

it is

square

meters

how many

hoeveel

square

meters

you

have

Friesland

a lot

but

the

average

space

that

occupy

also

really

echt

increasing

and

on top

that

also

have

culture

and

analysis

and

housing

culture

that's

dat is

not

very

much

oriented

towards

apartments

only

20%

the

people

live

apartment

while

the

countries

around

that

much

higher

that

already

alreeds

creates

challenging

context

which

need

operate

and

then

you

look

now

the

current

proposals

there's

a lot

emphasis

construction

need

build

100,000

houses

year

and

course

construction

is part

the

solution

oplossing

but

what

would

say

house

than

building

it's

het is

also

home

needs

also

much

than

just

building

houses

needs

develop

places

that

provide

good

goed

living

condition

and

that

comes

with

much

than

only

houses

it's

het is

about

infrastructure

it's

het is

about

certain

degree

community

building

it's

about

facilities

healthcare

education

that

think

denk

it's

it is

often

very

much

simplified

and

focused

numbers

whilst

spatial

planner

would

say

well

look

bit

holistically

sense

another

contradiction

here

because

omdat

politics

is more

about

being

clear

and

this

holistic

extremely

complex

and

nuanced

this

discussion

yeah

and

top

that

also

it's

often

the

kind

child

solutions

oplossingen

that

will

work

differ

per

spatial

context

the

fringes

the

city

the

historical

city

center

the

rural

areas

there

are

different

types

solutions

oplossingen

that

work

werk

but

isn't

is not

increasingly

hard

have

to have

those

nuanced

conversations

with

the

policy

beleid

makers

well

had

the

very

painful

times

over

the

last

years

when

some

point

think

was

2010

the

ministry

spatial

planning

was

abandoned

and

that

course

for

our

discipline

was

quite

dramatic

step

because

omdat

basically

the

government

was

saying

are

longer

interested

the

integrative

capacity

spatial

Planning

but

as you

might

have

noticed

opgemerkt

already

within

years

or so

they

regret

that

decision

and

now

there

again

minister

spatial

planning

part

the

ministry

interior

affairs

but

what

work

regularly

with

the

ministry

and

what

wat

see

there

that

there

very

limited

capacity

the

team

that

only

couple

dozens

people

working

the

spatial

much

less

than

used

yeah

lots

expertise

and

capacity

has

disappeared

but

still

it's

it is

good

international

context

that

have

really

echt

comprehensive

planning

system

and

tradition

that

still

students

from

all

over

the

world

wereld

come

the

Netherlands

learn

about

our

discipline

really

echt

special

the

long

term

what

have

established

how

hoe

coordinate

spatial

functions

and

uses

within

the

country

but

course

the

recent

times

are

challenging

yeah

yes

absolutely

absoluut

when

you

say

you

work

with

the

ministry

and

when

you

inform

policy

makers

and

maybe

stupid

question

right

but

what

you

base

your

knowledge

how

hoe

you

research

what

are

your

methods

how

hoe

you

get

the

expertise

that

you

have

yeah

the

latest

assignment

that

did

for

the

ministry

that

have

program

implementing

the

national

vision

it's

called

NOVEX

anyway

that's

dat is

technical

term

but

what

there

that

really

echt

kind

child

process

analysis

analyze

they

zij

had

kind

child

set

which

they

zij

brought

the

regional

and

national

governments

together

trying

make

better

agreements

where

waar

and

align

national

investments

with

regional

investments

what

topic

all

kind

child

topics

it's

it is

infrastructure

it's

housing

it's

fresh

water

supply

and

then

really

echt

look

who

are

the

table

how

are

participating

the

dialogue

but

are

sitting

the

room

observations

are

studying

the

documents

what

wat

kind

child

milestones

you

set

what

kind

child

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are

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process

bring

people

together

and

then

evaluate

what

extent

really

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based

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was

developed

and

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was

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child

research

design

methodology

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was

used

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that

really

echt

add

the

quality

this

process

then

it's

really

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governance

oriented

it's

rather

qualitative

see

how

people

respond

how

hoe

they

zij

perceive

also

this

process

how

they

zij

feel

that

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their

actions

their

commitment

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process

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one

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things

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I'm

I am

working

werken

but

other

projects

use

completely

compleet

different

methods.

you

also

into

cities

and

talk

people?

Yeah,

recently

completed

voltooid

large

scale

field

experiment

Austin

about

greening

your

jouw

front

garden.

Yeah,

fantastic.

It was

really

hands-on.

Greening

your

front

garden.

Yeah,

taking

tiles

tegelletjes

out,

putting

plants.

Just

front

garden?

this

case

just

front

garden

because

what

wat

were

interested

see

test

behavioral

intervention.

there

are

two

neighborhoods

and

one

neighborhood

both

beiden

neighborhoods

people

could

sign

up.

And

they

could

free

plants

and

would

take

away

their

tiles

together

with

the

municipality

and

the

house

incorporation.

And

then

the

experimental

neighborhood

the

sign

was

put

tiles

tegels

away

weg

free

plants

and

will

join.

And

the

other

neighborhood

didn't

have

that

sign

the

front

garden.

are

still

analyzing

the

data

together

with

the

environmental

psychologist.

And

there

evaluate

how

hoe

social

influence

can

also

make

social

norms

visible

the

neighborhood

and

also

persuade

people

also

participate

the front

garden

because

otherwise

people

wouldn't

see it.

then

you

don't

know

the

modeling.

that's

dat is

completely

different

type

study.

Yes.

Interesting.

Yeah.

and for

all

this

interdisciplinary

collaborations

are

just

inform

understanding

urban

governance.

What

kind

child

tools,

what

kind

child

incentives

have

somehow

op de een of andere manier

steer

this

massive

collective

system

which

there

are

many

actors

doing

doen

their

own

thing

also

looking

for

collaborations

and

get

a bit

grip

say

where

waar

the

city

going.

gaan.

But

can

say

probably

don't

hate

for

but

I've

been

interested

this

whole

minute

city.

Can

you

explain

that

strange

controversy

around

it?

It?

Some

people

online

and I

don't

understand

why

waarom

seem

hate

the

idea

and

don't

understand

it.

tell

whatever

wat dan ook

you

know

about

it.

What

does

mean?

Yeah

the

minute

city

was

concept

Moreno

think

was

first

implemented

Paris

during

COVID

and

it's

it is

really

about

favoring

favoriseren

active

mobility

going

food

bike

public

transport

through

door

facilities

the

city

and

the

idea

that

basic

facilities

that

you

need

for

your

everyday

life

leven

are

within

minute

city

minute

range

walking

wandelen

and

different

cities

this

concept

has

been

translated

into

slightly

different

format

maybe

Groningen

have

minute

city

but

then

biking

already

have

but

also

the

city

Groningen

embracing

this

concept

and

saying

want

have

the

minute

city

within

the

neighbourhood

neighborhood

and

what

interesting

about

this

concept

it's

really

echt

starting

from

the

perspective

accessibility

but

will

also

heavily

influence

land

country

use

come

from

period

which

there

was

quite

separation

different

functions

here

you

have

neighbourhood

neighborhood

for

living

and

there

have

district

for

working

and

there

have

the

inner

city

and

there

are

some

commercial

activities

and

there's

modernism

modern

idea

yeah

there's

modern

city

idea

that

really

echt

started

begon

Europe

after

the

World

War

and

this

minute

city

response

that

it's

it is

for

mixed

use

basically

mixed

use

neighbourhoods

neighborhoods

mixed

use

neighbourhoods

neighborhoods

really

oriented

the

daily

activities

and

creating

interaction

also

they

believe

that

you're

you are

travelling

traveling

slowly

that

you

actually

interact

with

the

people

around

you

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always

altijd

talking

but

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seeing

each

elk

other

instead

in plaats daarvan

being

your

own

bubble

your

jouw

car

but

there's

been

I mean

criminology

the

mixed

use

neighbourhoods

neighborhoods

were

crime

hotspots

course

right

that

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child

this

research

onderzoek

neighbourhood

neighborhood

research

the

thirties

and

forties

that

pointed

mixed

use

the

core

problem

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neighborhood

attracting

people

this

concept

could

konde

also

feel

blueprint

from

now

every

city

should

minute

city

and

are

actually

launching

have

launched

already

al reeds

project

and

have

the

kick

off

workshop

with

the

province

Groningen

and

all

the

municipalities

week

think

denk

yeah

week

where

waar

actually

say

well

need

unpack

Unpack

this

concept

because

omdat

have

many

different

much

complex

again

right

have

Veendam

incomparable

with

Groningen

and

incomparable

with

Oskert

right

but

the

key

question

here

think

denken

ask

are

you

actually

basically

satisfied

with

the

facilities

that

you

have

there

probably

you

are

I'm

I am

not

sure

yeah

Oskert

yeah

I'm

I am

happy

there

yes

but

it's

not

definitely

not

everything

alles

but

within

minutes

also

not

even

minutes

car

honest

it's

not

only

about

calculating

which

functions

are

there

within

minutes

but

it's

also

about

how

satisfied

people

are

with

that

guess

raad eens

also

one

the

complexities

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iets

that

dat

use

daily

within

minutes

doctor

for

instance

which

use

maybe

once

year

doesn't

matter

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takes

bit

longer

well

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human

factor

again

Okay

thanks

Thank you.

now

know

aren't

trying

address

too

much

factors

here

because

omdat

gets

infinitely

complex

this

way

right

course

the

risk

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set

priorities

yeah

okay

that

was

question

actually

what's

the

priority

right

now

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climate

right

well

would

definitely

favor

that

dat

but

also

that

has

many

layers

complexity

but

important

because

omdat

think

you're

pointing

really

echt

crucial

point

there

are

always

trade-offs

space

and

always

altijd

you

know

you

choose

for

something

iets

then

there

will

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space

for

other

functions

typically

typisch

course

you

can

look

for

smart

combination

things

dingen

but

there

simply

limited

space

and

therefore

very

interesting

interessant

time

because

omdat

many

things

dingen

are

changing

and

need

really

think

denk

what

wat

the

long

term

are

our

onze

priorities

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gevonden

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conversation

and

also

was

wondering

this

point

the

conversation

this

complexity

that we

are

emphasizing

can

also

quite

overwhelming

overweldigend

right

actually

yeah

but

yeah

for

yeah

also

realized

that

while

terwijl

talking

but

for

it's

really

echt

what

fascinates

about

spatial

playing

about

field

and

main

the

main

drive

what

wat

drives

research

how

hoe

can

actually

work

with

this

complexity

right

comes

with

different

orientation

when

wanneer

you

think

about

policy

making

it's

not

about

this

blueprint

planning

it's

not

only

about

bringing

stakeholders

the

table

but

also

about

thinking

denken

about

tools

that

allow

to allow

you

guide

these

dynamics

acknowledging

that

they

are

there

embracing

the

fact

that

they

bring

about

uncertainty

but

then

for

instance

your

physical

design

allow

upfront

room

for

change

invest

your

policy

beleid

making

processes

learning

and

experimenting

because

omdat

you

know

the

future

toekomst

will

uncertain

onzeker

you

need

invest

this

learning

leren

this

complexity

itself

and

the

fact

that

also

the

city

adapts

itself

independently

also

from

the

interventions

planners

should

starting

point

dot

for

policy

making

and

that

quite

shift

thinking

denken

and

that

really

echt

what

the

core

research

onderzoek

actually

and

that's

also

this

interdisciplinary

work

because

omdat

gives

different

perspectives

this

but

where

waar

you

start

and

importantly

belangrijkerwijs

where

waar

you

end

you

don't

end

it's

it is

process

becoming

there

end

we're

heading

into

philosophy

right

yeah

really

this

notion

the

world

wereld

constantly

even

the

things

dingen

that

consider

to be

facts

nowadays

can

also

you

cannot

control

freak

right

correct

person

mean

you

are

you

should

ask

partner

course

but

think

one

the

reasons

that

very

interested

this

that

actually

control

you're

you are

bringing

yourself

pain

yeah

well

I'm

course

not

planner

practice

have

bit

distance

but

advocating

for

kind

child

approach

planning

that

really

echt

considering

cities

as a

kind

child

organisms

and

that's

dat is

not

only

about

the

physical

environment

but

also

how

hoe

perceive

the

city

what

wat

actually

perceive

problems

also

changes

wijzigingen

over

time

but

it's

difficult

sometimes

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difficult

message

get

across

the

city

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organism

course

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iets

that

really

echt

compelling

dwingend

but

then

the

challenge

what

wat

does

that

mean

for

the

way

want

guide

that

city

there

the

real

challenge

the

different

push

and

pull

strategies

for

example

that's

dat is

very

nice

way

changing

rapidly

enough

because

omdat

there

sense

urgency

and

people

really

echt

want

change

people

really

want

change

challenging

uitdagend

question

in the

sense

that

think

it's

not

really

echt

tangible

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talk

about

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need

part

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movement

because

omdat

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future

toekomst

will

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please

step

board

and

what

does

that

mean

climate

proof

it's

really

echt

hard

imagine

what

does

that

mean

for

your

jouw

street

and

but

translate

the

municipality

Groningen

actually

doing

with

the

very

visionary

principle

that

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zij

have

adopted

they

zij

say

well

have

put

the

balance

differently

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street

and

have

accommodate

different

type

functions

and

it's

not

only

about

the

car

anymore

and

there

are

also

all

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child

images

and

examples

how

that

may

look

for

different

types

streets

and

then

becomes

much

tangible

I'm

not

saying

that

this

automatically

means

that

everybody

will

vote

favor

because

omdat

you

still

have

give

your

parking

lot

maybe

misschien

it's

always

hot

topic

but

think

it's

it is

important

translate

these

big

societal

transitions

into

tangible

tastable

changes

veranderingen

the

city

that

could

also

really

echt

beneficial

for

you

and

enjoyable

actually

green

for

example

exactly

also

places

play

for

instance

children

are

often

overlooked

policies

beleid

and

not

everything

alles

adaptable

right

correct

that's

that is

another

thing

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noticed

the

Groningen

countryside

and

also

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Outpost

Friesland

it's

unbelievable

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niets

plan

against

that

also

there

are

different

degrees

right

recht

infrastructure

roads

railways

harbors

they're

really

echt

hard

adapt

and

takes

long

time

think

can

operate

clever

there

also

why

waarom

always

altijd

construct

houses

they

should

there

for

100

years

there

are

new

methods

building

methods

construction

methods

should

say

that

allow

for

much

flexibility

temporal

housing

that

doesn't

look

temporal

housing

in the

sense

that

has

the

same

quality

but

you

can

tin

easily

move

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dat is

very

interesting

you

think

denk

long

term

perspective

climate

change

not

know

when

the

sea

level

will

reach

bereik

certain

levels

and

what

wat

will

the

exact

complications

can

also

say

temporarily

for

years

can

still

live

here

but

maybe

need

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one

thing

but

buildings

gebouwen

it's

already

al reeds

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easier

functions

and

how

hoe

actually

use

those

buildings

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it's

already

alreeds

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also

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layers

and

think

within

regulations

need

cater

for

that

flexibility

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the

zoning

plan

can

quite

restrictive

you

can

only

dwell

here

and

not

have

your

jouw

shop

your

office

what

wat

would

you

say

was

the

biggest

innovation

the

biggest

game

changer

sorry

for

the

buzzwords

spatial

planning

say

the

last

don't

know

you

choose

however

many

years

when

you

think

denken

maybe

what

sparked

your

interest

for

this

field

that's

dat is

very

personal

grew

Lelystad

which

very

adaptive

well

in a

way

very

planned

city

but

super

planned

city

yeah

yes

completely

drawn

engineers

the

drawing

board

the

whole

idea

how

hoe

people

should

live

there

who

should

live

there

what

wat

kind

child

houses

what

distance

from

the

neighborhood

city

center

from

the

strange

was

all

calculated

optimized

geoptimaliseerd

advance

and

distance

from

the

train

station

someone

iemand

was

thinking

the

minute

city

before

the

minute

city

way

yes

absolutely

absoluut

transport

oriented

development

not

new

thing

within

planning

there

are

already

many

concepts

building

this

idea

but

it's

completely

blueprint

planned

city

and

course

Lelystad

is not

seen

one of

most

beautiful

cities

the

Netherlands

often

I had

explain

really

echt

mean

can

you

live

there

and

actually

had

really

echt

enjoyable

youth

and

had

great

groot

time

tijd

there

but

also

sparked

interest

how

hoe

this

came

why

waarom

was

the

city

stad

developed

this

who

was

charge

and

would

still

work

today

I've

been to

Germany

a few

times

tijden

in the

last

few

weeks

and

keep

driving

past

Blauerstad

another

very

planned

gepland

place

very

artificial

which

least

initially

didn't

work

werk

studied

the

case

also

it's

again

there

you

see

that

the

one

hand

it's

it is

good

have

vision

really

it's

original

vision

for

that

region

there

were

all

kind

child

challenges

that

had

tackled

economic

vibrancy

also

you

demographic

changes

and

really

echt

the

idea

was

create

kind

child

living

environment

here

hier

that

would

attract

different

type

economic

class

this

region

that

could

beneficial

for

many

people

living

there

grand

design

right

recht

motivating

captivating

fascinating

vision

but

then

it's

it is

really

echt

important

translating

that

vision

that

you

don't

assume

that

will

fully

volledig

plan

the

sense

that

there

will

all

kind

child

other

influences

that

will

maybe

disrupt

this

vision

you

need

build

adaptive

capacity

and

one

the

problems

they

had

Blauwenstad

Blue Town

high

upfront

investment

the

lake

very

strict

building

code

because

they

zij

wanted

secure

kind

child

living

environment

kind

child

atmosphere

you

say

very

restricted

building

code

that's

that is

what

you

said

what

wat

does

mean

the

quality

the

bricks

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design

the

houses

and

that

also

restricted

kind

child

other

functions

that

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maybe

misschien

only

temporal

permanently

developed

there

what

happened

many

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plots

remained

empty

right

everything

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was

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and

economic

crisis

well

right

recht

the

same

time

economic

crisis

and

also

the

way

they

zij

organized

with

private

parties

they

zij

stepped

out

then

the

regional

government

had

take

the

risk

but

it's

interesting

see

how

the

area

developing

ontwikkeling

every

now

and

then

there

think

denken

kind

child

push

demand

for

houses

there

yeah

just

maybe

half

year

ago

read

something

iets

about

that

again

the

increase

what

are

interesting

projects

right

now

mentioned

Assen

and

this

Blauwe

Blue

stad

city

talked

praat

about

Lelystad

research

wise

within

the

city

where

waar

are

you

involved

I'm

heavily

involved

currently

city

logistics

together

super

interesting

definitely

I think

also

with

COVID

saw

many

new

nieuw

initiatives

this

time

delivery

for

instance

but

this

also

rapidly

changing

field

and

that

also

has

many

implications

implicaties

for

the

flows

within

the

city

and

the

way

collect

our

onze

groceries

parcels

and

that

also

influences

city

life

leven

right

need

all

kinds

children

hubs

the

borders

the

city

right

recht

that's

one

the

complications

complicaties

that

are

coming

you

want

have

zero

mission

delivery

within

the

city

stad

right

how

hoe

are

you

going

gaan

organize

that

indeed

are

then

these

hubs

working

then

where

waar

should

they

positioned

what

wat

kind

child

different

kind

child

behavior

from

customers

from

shop

owners

does

this

require

that's

dat is

really

echt

big

puzzle

and

there's

quite

some

urgency

behind

because

all

kinds

children

commitments

the

policy

level

but

Groningen

is a

frontrunner

front-runner

this

topic

now

really

echt

they

zij

are

doing

doen

quite

some

innovative

experiments

with

different

type

vehicles

testing

all

kinds

children

things

dingen

but

challenging

uitdagend

think

the

diversity

stakeholders

that

involved

not

only

Postenel

Albert

needs

the

deliveries

but

also

just

window

cleaner

that

has

diesel

Euro

van

driving

the

city

for

few

hours

uren

but

also

has

his

her

work

werk

another

city

not

facing

these

kind

child

restrictions

how

hoe

deal

with

those

different

kind

child

users

and

talking

about

justice

where

waar

you

started

begonnen

with

how

also

make

sure

that

they

will

have

their

possibilities

I expect

a rather

big discussion

about that

in the

coming

months

maybe

years

because

omdat

all kinds

concrete

measures

have

been

taken

tasks

right

per

year

think

denken

there's

zero

emission

here

the

city

center

and

also

a lot

other

city

centers

the

Netherlands

Amsterdam

already

has

far

know

and

then

gets

well

there

are

all

kinds

children

exceptions

uitzonderingen

for

vans

with

Euro

still

see

that

Groningen

was

really

echt

early

with

taking

measures

but

then

the

response

also

from

different

parties

was

okay

it's

nice

Nice

that

you

are

innovative

and

you

want

push

this

but

not

only

operate

Groningen

also

operate

other

cities

and

you

cities

steden

you

need

coordinate

with

each

elk

other

otherwise

it's

really

echt

difficult

for

meet

the

new

requirements

vereisten

that's

dat is

one

the

things

dingen

but

think

the

other

thing

also

for

instance

how

hoe

envision

public

space

indeed

there

will

less

lorries

trucks

parked

the

Volkingen

Folkings

straat

street

every

elk

morning

which

think

would

positive

development

since

every

morning

it's

blocked

what

wat

kind

child

opportunities

this

also

create

and

also

how

hoe

then

still

make

sure

that

these

shops

get

their

goods

delivered

that

needs

behoeften

all

kind

child

adjustments

and

also

experiments

which

really

echt

nice

involved

and

there

are

again

combining

expertise

urban

governance

but

also

with

this

case

Paul

Buijs

expertise

operational

management

city

logistics

from

the

business

perspective

that's

dat is

really

fantastic

about

over

being

zijn

such

broad

university

that

can

bring

these

disciplines

together

don't

have

any

questions

think

but

anything

that

you

think

denk

our

listeners

should

know

about

spatial

planning

that

our

ignorance

did

not

ask

you

think

denken

it's

important

have

long

term

view

and

well

have

new

nieuw

government

yes

you're

you are

already

alreeds

stressing

the

difficult

political

climate

and

that's

dat is

course

for

spatial

planners

that is

really

echt

challenging

make

sure

Sure

that

these

long

term

needs

these

long

term

challenges

that

face

somehow

op de een of andere manier

remain

the

agenda

and

that

strategically

work

those

and

it's

maybe

good

goed

know

to know

that

planners

are

doing

doen

their

best

somehow

op de een of andere manier

bring

all

these

different

demands

together

their

policy

beleid

making

what

wat

you

see

for

the

coming

let

, let

me ask

difficult

question

for

the

coming

years

and

then

years

what

wat

will

see

here

Groningen

for

example

well

definitely

see

all

kind

child

well

definitely

see

the

sustainable

logistics

changes

right

rechts

will

quite

normal

have

your

parcels

not

delivered

home

but

parcel

package

locker

pick

point

for

instance

also

maybe

some

additional

message

there

definitely

the

city

center

but

hopefully

hopelijk

also

some

other

neighborhoods

less

zero

emission

vehicles

for

instance

what

wat

will

another

big

change

climate

adaptation

that

will

very

visible

the

street

level

already

and

you

see

the

water

that

added

really

echt

crucial

and

think

denken

underestimate

how

hoe

little

time

have

make

sure

that

are

ready

for

hotter

days

periods

drought

intense

rain

that

needs

quite

some

adjustments

the

public

space

I'm

I’m

positive

also

with

the

field

experiment

many

people

really

start

see

this

what

really

echt

need

act

but

also

many

people

struggle

what

wat

where

waar

start

it's

also

about

giving

geven

content

the

how

hoe

easy

eenvoudig

steps

take

being

practical

you're

quite

optimistic

I'm

I’m

hopeful

hoopvol

that's

that is

maybe

something

iets

different

than

optimistic

yeah

and

think

another

thing

that

will

definitely

definitively

see

Groningen

course

that

the

city

will

expand

quite

substantially

Zuikerszijde

Sugar side

Stadshavend

City harbor

Meerstad

that

adding

quite

number

households

and

some

sommige

point

Oeskot

will

part

Groningen

doubt

that

years

don't

want

because

part

the

train

will

called

metro

subway

right

great

geweldig

think

we've

come

the

end

this

episode

right

yeah

don't

have

any

eenige

questions

have

process

all

bit

awesome

geweldig

thanks

Thank you.

much

for

being

guest

it's

it is

pleasure

might

want

ask

our

listeners

can

have

the

word

sure

many

you

may

have

those

you

who

are

loyal

followers

may

have

noticed

that

some

podcasts

Dutch

some

podcasts

English

used

podcasts

English

with

international

researchers

and

those

Dutch

researchers

onderzoekers

the

last

few

episodes

the

last

maybe

misschien

year

and a

half

something

iets

we've

been

predominantly

recording

English

but

we're

actually

not

quite

sure

we're

planning

German

and

Friesian

Frisian

we're

we are

open

make

episodes

those

languages

well

want

have

your

opinions

whether

you

prefer

Dutch

episodes

whether

you

prefer

the

mix

Dutch

episodes

with

Dutch

researchers

whether

you

prefer

everything

alles

English

don't

have

poll

but

we're

very

welcome

either

can

people

comment

the

podcast

but

people

can

send

they

zij

can

send

podcast

rug

dot

we're

very

curious

what

you

think

denken

that

can

some

sommige

planning

for

the

two

episodes

and

beyond

alright

thanks

Thanks

podcast

rug

dot

Please provide the Dutch text you would like me to translate.

also

the

show

notes

right

thanks

our

ons

editor

chief

here

the

podcast

thank

you

for

listening

especially

that

until

time

bye

thanks

Thank you.

bye

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